BAB and Save Progressions

[landamus]

As I now understand from our last session both the saves and base attack bonus are not cumulative based on level. I say cumulative because you do not add anything to that number or add to the current number when you level up. It is rather a static number associated to the level and class of the character.

I think that is illogical. Given my Ultimate Magus character all the classes and prestige class have the same BAB (poor) and saves (poor, poor, and good respectively). So given the proper way and given the gains from the following levels:

1 lvl Sorcerer
BAB 0 Fort 0 Ref 0 Will 2
3 lvls Wizard
BAB 1 Fort 1 Ref 1 Will 3
6 lvls Ultimate Magus
BAB 3 Fort 2 Ref 2 Will 5
Totals
BAB 4 Fort 3 Ref 3 Will 10

I think that it would be more logical given that the classes all have the same progressions they would be combined to get the current value. Using this method saves are not artificially inflated from the additional starting bonus of good saves from multiple classes. It would also counteract the deflation of the characters BAB. Using this method for example this character would have a BAB of 5 (1 greater than otherwise), Fort 3 (equal but given more levels of experience it would diverge), Ref 3 (would diverge as the fort save), and Will 7 (lower save but a more accurate number give the level of the character).

This isn't the only possible method. You can have fractional saves and BAB as explained in Unearthed Arcana. All these are rounded down so that the fractional part is not actually used until you gain the next level and calculate a new save. Personally, I like that even better.

So I'd propose a change but I don't DM so these are mere ideas and possibilities. What do you think?

(edit: posting while sleepy leaves lots of typos)

[Lord Kain]

But what they don't use the same progression? Just because YOUR build has three classes with the same save and BA progression doesn't mean anythings wrong with the system. What if your dealing with a much more complicated with more then three classes or epic levels which have there own progression.

The rules need to apply universally. What you purpose only applies to a fraction of actual classes.

[landamus]

I suppose I should have used a more complicated example to illustrate my point. Here it is with classes that all have different progressions. I'm only using PH classes for ease, but any other classes would be as interchangable.

Class	Levels	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will
Wizard	3	1(poor)	1(poor)	1(poor)	3(good)
Monk	5	3(average)	4(good)	4(good)	4(good)
Fighter	5	5(good)	4(good)	1(poor)	1(poor)
Cleric	7	5(average)	5(good)	2(poor)	5(good)
Totals	20	14	14	8	13

Using the method I propose you would combine the class levels for the progressions that are the same. From the earlier example you would have 3 lvls poor BAB, 12 lvls average, and 5 lvls good. This would give you a BA of 15. Saves calculated this way would give a Fort of 11, Ref of 9, and Will of 9.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with the current methodology just that there are better methods out there. Also, I did not propose any change to the epic rules since all classes have the same progression after level 20. This method would apply to all classes equally in any combination.

[Lord Kain]

Your way isn't really better just more complicated, as you said your not a DM, so you don't have to make one character while our DM has to make dozens.
My point about epic is for the past 20 levels you've been using some kind of progression combination.

Once again universally applying the rules.
If we take my own character at her next level.(at my current level I simply lose two points from my will save).
Psion11/Mindbender1
BA+5, AL; SV Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +9 Normal
Under yours
BA+6, AL; SV Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +8 Normal

The good will, bad reflex and base attack from mindbender and psion combined into a single progression while my fortitude save is still inflated by my single level in mindbender. My fortitude is still added separately while the rest use the combined progression both are following different advancement rules.
When I could simply check my next psion level and see what saves and such go up. I need to reference my will and base attack independently as it is using a different *combined* progression.

So your still adding up the bonus from different classes
Lets look at a more complicated build
A Gish build
Fighter4/Sorc2/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword1
Has a great deal of complication added in when you level up.
Except for sorcerer they all have good BA.
Two classes have good fortitude saves, two have good will saves, none have good reflexs.
Now the bad fortitude still has to be added to the good fortitude etc.
I'm don't think I have to explain how usign a combined progression complicates this already complicated build.

[Sargon]

the way that is is done is very simple, for the reason of it being very simple.

DnD is a very illogical system anyhow, (chickens should not have any HP at all, and house cats can kill first level commoners) i will agree that there are better systems out there, simplay beacuse nothing is perfect.

but any change to the game on this scale would be all but impossible. for years i have been keeping records and NPCs, and this would change them all. not to mention the numerious changes that would need to be done in the MMs. the work reguired would be staggering.

[Master Spellblade]

Mar 17, 2009 13:52:55 GMT -5 Sargon said:

DnD is a very illogical system anyhow, (chickens should not have any HP at all, and house cats can kill first level commoners)

Obviously you've never seen a house cat activate it's blender mode.

Feh, "When a cat lays on it's back five of it's six ends are point." - Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes